Sunday November 4, 2012

Hi Lavida,

Not very sure whats going on exactly because I have not been completely following the conversation lately but it seemed to me that everyone's agreed that noone will be pressurising others and those who want to join in bursts can and those who work in a different way can do that as well. I think there is plenty of room for everyone.

And also some who might be a bit over the top pumped up are hanging out in a seperate room so as not to stress out others. Normal calm bursts are still going on in the main chatroom as well. I think most things are sorted out now and hope you will reconsider and stay on this site, especially if you think it has benefitted you in the past. 

Take care... In the mean time i hope your job hunt and writing goes well. 

Lucky, you've been nothing but kind and wonderful and have nothing to be sorry about. Thank you for your support of me. but I'm leaving this site. I wish you the best!

A reflection room is one idea.
It might be a helpful idea for some.
I'm not sure it's the answer for this situation, though.
I replied further down the thread to another post here:
http://procrastinators-anonymous.org/node/4522#comment-57553

With all due respect, the idea that we should be conscious of anyone using the chatbox is absurd. The whole point of the box (as I understood it) was anonymity - to use it to check in, being accountable to one's self, and being productive without any commitment to anyone else or obligation to anyone else.  To now suggest that my bursting or being overly productive is harmful, hurtful, or damaging to another PA member because they can't keep up is well....absurd. To bring it up as an issue, somehow suggests that I now have to worry about how my productivity might affect other people using the chatbox.  On it's face, that's absurd. The point is to be more productive, not to "slow it down." I'm looking to go forward, not have someone hold my hand while I stand in one place or go backwards. I'm all for support. Truly. I like it myself.  I just have no interest in being responsible for other people's feelings and how my productivity makes them feel while using the chatbox.That's a weight around my neck that I don't need.  I doubt anyone else does either.   Just keeping it real.

Late check out as I went to sleep last night.

Prayers for people concerned about the chat room.

Thank you for being here friends.

Rexroth

Wolke,
You asked how people feel when there is a "go go go" bursting in the chatbox.

I can say only how *I* feel.

I feel comfortable when a person says "I'm going to burst.  Others are welcome to join in." and then the person just does their bursting thing.   They don't check up on others if they are joining in or not.  They don't ask others if their bursts were successful.  They just burst alone if needed or alongside others if needed. But they don't prod others.  I'm fine if the person is enthusiastic about themselves but having no expectations of others.

I feel very uncomfortable if the burster is actively trying to pass enthusiasm on to others.  There is a way that some bursters present their enthusiasm that feels like a passive-aggressive prodding. (NOTE: that's how it *feels* to *me*.)  I feel pressured and judged.  This makes me feel very demand resistant, and I tend to stop participating in chat at that point.  Sometimes I log out, or sometimes I stay logged into chat but go to other tabs on my browser.

There have been individuals who have implied that if I am in the chatbox admitting that I feel stuck, then that would be like drinking at an AA meeting.  Well, I disagree!

The check-in chatbox is called "Check-in".  That means that you go there to check in, and say briefly what's happening with your recovery or lack thereof.  Having the bravery to come to the PA chatbox to admit that you're stuck -- is a brave act of intention for recovery.

There have been individuals who have implied that if I say anything at all negative about my experiences, then I must be self-sabotaging and therefore I'm losing recovery, and that I should say only positive things in the chatroom and not bring any negative vibes there. Well, I disagree!

For those who are not familiar with "bookending" -- here is my understanding of the concept:
In the old days of AA (before internet), bookending was done via telephone.  You would phone a 12step buddy, and say what you're going to do.  Then you would hang up the phone, and attempt to go do it.  Later in the day or week, you would call the buddy back to say how it went or how it's going.  Sometimes you would report that you felt defiance or resistance or avoidance, and got nothing done.  Sometimes you would report that you got part of the task done.  Sometimes you would report that you got the entire task done.    Your buddy would listen without judgment.   Then you would say what you're going to do next (either restart the task, or try another task).  You have prearranged with your buddy how often you can phone them and how long each phonecall will last.

In modern times, 12step bookending is often done with leaving voicemails, texts, or emails for your buddy.  You might not actually speak with your buddy, but you know that your buddy is listening to -- or reading -- your messages.   You prearrange with your buddy how often you can check in and how long a message is appropriate.

This is called "bookending" a task.  Why?  Because "bookends" are two solid objects on either end of a row of books -- The bookends support the books.

Bookending phonecalls/messages are like that.  The phonecalls/messages before and after the attempt at the task ... are like bookends that "support" your process of recovery.  Somehow, just having someone listen -- is a support, that gives you confidence and safety.  Also, having the freedom (within prearranged limit) to express your process, helps you, because just saying aloud to someone that you're stuck, often helps you see for yourself how you got stuck, and what can be done about it.  You can discover these insights especially if your buddy isn't interrupting.

My personal understanding (note that this is just "me") -- my personal understanding -- is that that historically, the check-in chatbox and the daily check-in forums ... were created for a similar purpose as bookending -- checking in before and after doing tasks.

The check-in chatbox and the daily check-in forums are part of the "PeerSupport" aspect of the website, and therefore not subject to 12stepguidelines.

The check-in aspect of the website is owned and managed by Pro.

There is no current "rule" that we can or cannot express our emotions as part of our check-in.

At this point, the only "rule" that Pro has written is ... what it says above the chatbox:  "The chatbox is for meetings or check-ins, not for procrastination! If you are not even trying to get something done, please do not hang out in the chatbox and attempt to divert others who are trying to work. This is really important. Thank you for cooperating."

Therefore, my conclusion is that checking in with our emotions is fine, provided that it's part of our process of getting things done, and we don't ramble on for five minutes to the point of distracting others.

There is no rule that says we are forbidden from mentioning stuckness or negativity.

Sometimes my "check-in" is to briefly say "I'm feeling fear because my friend is angry and I can't find my eyeglasses and I feel lost and hopeless.  Due to these emotions, I'm having trouble getting started today."   I think that's okay when it's about my ATTEMPT to get STARTED.  I'm just checking in -- and I'm not trying to start a conversation or elicit sympathy.  I'm just stating where I'm at.  By stating this in front of witnesses, I am able to see more clearly what is going on within myself, and this helps me to release and move forward.

If nobody replies, I feel safe and accepted.  I then post into chatbox that I'm going to try again, or take a break, or say a prayer, or whatever.  If nobody replies, I feel safe.

But when people try to "fix" me, or tell me to "be positive", I feel attacked.  (Again, let me emphasize that this is just *me*.  I'm not speaking for anyone else).  I know intellectually that the other people "mean well" but my gut reaction is that the others are judging me or shaming me (even though I know intellectually that they intend kindness).  I realize that my feelings aren't always logical, but nevertheless, they are there.  I feel defiance and dejection and want to run away.

Historically, the check-in chat was for brief check-ins.  People usually stayed logged in while working on tasks.  Sometimes people stay logged in all day but don't post -- just having the window open is a reminder to stay on task.

The concept of bursting with others evolved later.

For a long time, there was a tolerance of some people doing simultaneous bursting, while others were doing more reflective check-ins.  Everyone worked in harmony.

It's only been in the past few months that there has been more aggressive bursting to the point of bursters active prodding others to get busy, and being intolerant of those doing a more reflective check-in.  For me, this has felt very intimidating, and I feel unsafe in chat now.

What really upsets me is that some persons have implied that chatters should already be nonprocrastinators and be easily able to start tasks and continue tasks.   My response to that is that I'm still a procrastinator and I still need the chatbox.   Are these members saying that only "cured" procrastinators can come to chat?  I hope not.

In AA meetings, you cannot bring a bottle of whiskey to the meeting. But you can admit that you went off the wagon, and you are totally accepted for honesty and the bravery for coming to the meeting.

I would hope that in PA chatbox, we don't do the equivalent of "bringing whiskey":  Intentionally trying to distract others.  (I've never seen anyone do this).  But I hope that we can feel safe for bravely honestly admitting our stuckness and our emotional process of getting unstuck.

I know you're trying to get your thesis done, and I appreciate your dedication, enthusiasm, and need for support.  This is vital to your goals and your recovery!  I applaud that.   But I hope you recognize that each of us is working at our own pace.  In my personal opinion, it seems unreasonable to expect everyone to be as devoted to constant bursting as you are.

I know that I always feel support for your process even when I'm not joining in.

Why not just state your intention to burst, and trust that others are silently supporting your burst, even if they don't join in?

Please recognize that we all have different styles and perspectives.  Some want feedback and some don't want feedback.  And both styles are acceptable.

• Therefore, if a member says "I'm just stating my thoughts and I don't want a reply"  Then please don't reply -- not even to say "okay".  Trust their process.
• If I've requested "no feedback" and someone ignores me and gives feedback anyhow, then it's my responsibility to say:  "I get more recovery -- and thus more accomplished -- if I don't get feedback. Please don't reply to me. "
• I also recognize that I cannot reasonably expect everyone to remember my preferences.  Therefore, every time I want "no feedback", it's my responsibility to say so.
• If you need encouragement, it's okay to say so.  I will give encouragement if I'm actually reading chat at that moment and happen to see your request for it.
• Sometimes, I find myself becoming distracted when I'm giving encouragement to others.  If this happens, then I have to curb myself and then ... I won't type anything into chat, but I will continue to 'silently' support everyone.